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Will Barlow have a better season than Hambrick did last year

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Postby Kensat30 » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:33 pm

TheRawDAWG wrote: And what you fail to mention is when he was doing this he had TO and Garcia there taking pressure off him. TO got the defence's attention, NOT Barlow. Barlow gets all of it this year.......And BTW, does anyone know what Hambricks YPC ave. was before last year? If I'm not mistaken it was over 5. I do agree however Barlow is much more talented and should have a better season than Hambrick did last year. But LT2 he is not and he wont be able to handle the pressure and crack the top 10 RBs.


I don't understand this logic at all. This all goes into the "8-man in the box theory correct"?

How does a single WR change the mindset of the entire defensive front? Since when do linebackers and defensive linemen play coverage (even zone) on #1 wide receivers anyways? And how often is one receiver going to change the outcome of every game?

If you've watched every Niner's game since T.O. was a rookie like I have, you'll notice that T.O. was NOT the center of the offense. T.O. complained quite frequently actually that the offense didn't do enough to make plays for him and to take chances on getting him the ball. It fell on deaf ears, because the 49ers as an organization, just like 99% of the other NFL teams out there, know that you need a balanced attack to be successful in this league.

The fact is that EVERY RB IN THE NFL faces "8 men in the box" rather frequently and it based more upon the situation than personnel. For example, on third and short you will not be in a "dime" package and on 3rd and 20 you're not gonna be in run stop defense. In fact, the whole 8-man in the box theory relies on the quality of the offensive opponent, when I would argue that in actuality DEFENSIVE TEAM will dictate whether or not when they want to stack the box. Aggressive defenses that like to blitz (Atlanta) and teams with strong secondaries (Baltimore) are more likely to stack the box. While teams with a strong 4 man front (Carolina) are more likely to play in softer coverage.

If anything, the 49ers season this year will see LESS 8-men in the box than most other teams. Simply put, many people are predicting the 49ers to be down multiple touchdowns in every game. How many times do you see a team up 14-20 points in the third quarter stacking the box against the run.

USE SOME COMMONSENSE PEOPLE, you're all following the 8-man in the box theory without even breaking it down and realizing why defenses use this technique. The 49ers, just like every other team in football is going to pass the ball many times this season and teams cannot blitz a safety on every freaking down.

LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule. His team had to be the worst overall team last year. How else do you think he got 100 catches out of the backfield. Tomlinson amassed a BIG ypc INCREASE simply because his team was so horrible. Tomlinson wasn't facing "8 in the box" all season long, he had a ton of 2nd and 3rd and longs!
Last edited by Kensat30 on Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 34=Sweetness » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:39 pm

awwchrist wrote:
Go Vikes wrote:I would take him in the third to fourth round. I'm not high on him either. I would consider taking manning or culpepper before him.


If ANYONE is taking Barlow over Culpepper or Manning in the 2nd round you deserve to be beaten in the head with a tack hammer.
Are you saying to take Culpepper and Manning in the 2nd round??
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Postby FFPlayinMoFo » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:59 pm

I grabbed him in the 2nd round. I'm concerned that he plays on a bad team, but there's also alot of bad run Ds on the Niners schedule.


I got him at 14th and the only other RB who was left that I was considering using a 2nd round pick on was Dom Davis
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Postby Ricky_Christ » Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:03 pm

I got Tomlinson as my first pick and Barlow as my second. He's a talented athlete with a soft schedule who just became a centerpiece of his team's offense.

BARLOW YOU'RE MY BOY!!!! ;-D
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:21 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
TheRawDAWG wrote: And what you fail to mention is when he was doing this he had TO and Garcia there taking pressure off him. TO got the defence's attention, NOT Barlow. Barlow gets all of it this year.......And BTW, does anyone know what Hambricks YPC ave. was before last year? If I'm not mistaken it was over 5. I do agree however Barlow is much more talented and should have a better season than Hambrick did last year. But LT2 he is not and he wont be able to handle the pressure and crack the top 10 RBs.


I don't understand this logic at all. This all goes into the "8-man in the box theory correct"?

How does a single WR change the mindset of the entire defensive front? Since when do linebackers and defensive linemen play coverage (even zone) on #1 wide receivers anyways? And how often is one receiver going to change the outcome of every game?

If you've watched every Niner's game since T.O. was a rookie like I have, you'll notice that T.O. was NOT the center of the offense. T.O. complained quite frequently actually that the offense didn't do enough to make plays for him and to take chances on getting him the ball. It fell on deaf ears, because the 49ers as an organization, just like 99% of the other NFL teams out there, know that you need a balanced attack to be successful in this league.

The fact is that EVERY RB IN THE NFL faces "8 men in the box" rather frequently and it based more upon the situation than personnel. For example, on third and short you will not be in a "dime" package and on 3rd and 20 you're not gonna be in run stop defense. In fact, the whole 8-man in the box theory relies on the quality of the offensive opponent, when I would argue that in actuality DEFENSIVE TEAM will dictate whether or not when they want to stack the box. Aggressive defenses that like to blitz (Atlanta) and teams with strong secondaries (Baltimore) are more likely to stack the box. While teams with a strong 4 man front (Carolina) are more likely to play in softer coverage.

If anything, the 49ers season this year will see LESS 8-men in the box than most other teams. Simply put, many people are predicting the 49ers to be down multiple touchdowns in every game. How many times do you see a team up 14-20 points in the third quarter stacking the box against the run.

USE SOME COMMONSENSE PEOPLE, you're all following the 8-man in the box theory without even breaking it down and realizing why defenses use this technique. The 49ers, just like every other team in football is going to pass the ball many times this season and teams cannot blitz a safety on every freaking down.

LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule. His team had to be the worst overall team last year. How else do you think he got 100 catches out of the backfield. Tomlinson amassed a BIG ypc INCREASE simply because his team was so horrible. Tomlinson wasn't facing "8 in the box" all season long, he had a ton of 2nd and 3rd and longs!


Wow what a waste of typing. LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule? Sorry dude you lost me there. LT2 is a BIG exception to the rule. Don't even try to compare him to Barlow. DON'T!!

As for having other weapons on your team not helping you....uh do you know football? If it doesn't matter than why is it one of the most talked about subjects? If TO and Garcia are there the D has to respect the pass. They can't have spies on the RB or have 8-9 in the box.Without a passing game they will be able to have 8-9 in the box. And with NO WR that has to be doub;le teamed it just makes sense that another defender will be closer to the line.

Oh and what is this you say about the 49ers having to pass because they are down all the time? The D wont have to have 8 in the box because the 49ers will be forced to pass? If the 9ers are passing how does that help Barlow?
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:22 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
TheRawDAWG wrote: And what you fail to mention is when he was doing this he had TO and Garcia there taking pressure off him. TO got the defence's attention, NOT Barlow. Barlow gets all of it this year.......And BTW, does anyone know what Hambricks YPC ave. was before last year? If I'm not mistaken it was over 5. I do agree however Barlow is much more talented and should have a better season than Hambrick did last year. But LT2 he is not and he wont be able to handle the pressure and crack the top 10 RBs.


I don't understand this logic at all. This all goes into the "8-man in the box theory correct"?

How does a single WR change the mindset of the entire defensive front? Since when do linebackers and defensive linemen play coverage (even zone) on #1 wide receivers anyways? And how often is one receiver going to change the outcome of every game?

If you've watched every Niner's game since T.O. was a rookie like I have, you'll notice that T.O. was NOT the center of the offense. T.O. complained quite frequently actually that the offense didn't do enough to make plays for him and to take chances on getting him the ball. It fell on deaf ears, because the 49ers as an organization, just like 99% of the other NFL teams out there, know that you need a balanced attack to be successful in this league.

The fact is that EVERY RB IN THE NFL faces "8 men in the box" rather frequently and it based more upon the situation than personnel. For example, on third and short you will not be in a "dime" package and on 3rd and 20 you're not gonna be in run stop defense. In fact, the whole 8-man in the box theory relies on the quality of the offensive opponent, when I would argue that in actuality DEFENSIVE TEAM will dictate whether or not when they want to stack the box. Aggressive defenses that like to blitz (Atlanta) and teams with strong secondaries (Baltimore) are more likely to stack the box. While teams with a strong 4 man front (Carolina) are more likely to play in softer coverage.

If anything, the 49ers season this year will see LESS 8-men in the box than most other teams. Simply put, many people are predicting the 49ers to be down multiple touchdowns in every game. How many times do you see a team up 14-20 points in the third quarter stacking the box against the run.

USE SOME COMMONSENSE PEOPLE, you're all following the 8-man in the box theory without even breaking it down and realizing why defenses use this technique. The 49ers, just like every other team in football is going to pass the ball many times this season and teams cannot blitz a safety on every freaking down.

LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule. His team had to be the worst overall team last year. How else do you think he got 100 catches out of the backfield. Tomlinson amassed a BIG ypc INCREASE simply because his team was so horrible. Tomlinson wasn't facing "8 in the box" all season long, he had a ton of 2nd and 3rd and longs!


Wow what a waste of typing. LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule? Sorry dude you lost me there. LT2 is a BIG exception to the rule. Don't even try to compare him to Barlow. DON'T!!

As for having other weapons on your team not helping you....uh do you know football? If it doesn't matter than why is it one of the most talked about subjects? If TO and Garcia are there the D has to respect the pass. They can't have spies on the RB or have 8-9 in the box.Without a passing game they will be able to have 8-9 in the box. And with NO WR that has to be doub;le teamed it just makes sense that another defender will be closer to the line.

Oh and what is this you say about the 49ers having to pass because they are down all the time? The D wont have to have 8 in the box because the 49ers will be forced to pass? If the 9ers are passing how does that help Barlow?
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby MadScott » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:22 pm

TheRawDAWG wrote:Oh and what is this you say about the 49ers having to pass because they are down all the time? The D wont have to have 8 in the box because the 49ers will be forced to pass? If the 9ers are passing how does that help Barlow?
It's not like they are going to take him out of the game during these situations. Swing passes, check downs, dump offs, screens, all part of the game, especially in SF. As for 8 men in the box, you mean to tell me that if they run a 3 WR set out there and they send everyone deep that there isn't going to be a safety? Come on.
Last edited by MadScott on Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kensat30 » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:12 pm

[football 101]

TheRawDAWG wrote:Wow what a waste of typing. LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule? Sorry dude you lost me there. LT2 is a BIG exception to the rule. Don't even try to compare him to Barlow. DON'T!!



You totally missed the point of my argument. I'm not comparing Barlow to LT2, I'm trying to debunk the 8-men in the box theory. You know how LT2 got so many receptions and why his yardage numbers were so extremely good on such a bad team? Of course he's an incredibly talented runner, but there actually is another reason for his success..... He saw A LOT of soft coverage simply because the Charger's were in 2nd and 3rd and long situations so often last season. It's very easy to complete a 4 yard pass to the RB when defenses are in a nickel defense if you didn't know this.....


TheRawDAWG wrote:As for having other weapons on your team not helping you....uh do you know football? If it doesn't matter than why is it one of the most talked about subjects? If TO and Garcia are there the D has to respect the pass. They can't have spies on the RB or have 8-9 in the box.Without a passing game they will be able to have 8-9 in the box. And with NO WR that has to be doub;le teamed it just makes sense that another defender will be closer to the line.



I'm sorry, but defenses do not gameplan their entire defense to stop a single WR, not even Randy Moss requires that much attention. A single WR may require a double team all game long, usually this means shifting a safety over to cover the deep third. So basically what you are trying to say, is that now that T.O. is gone, the other teams will magically blitz a safety on every play? Why not just put an extra lineback in the game and go with a 4/4 defense?

Not to mention you list a 9 man in the box? There's only 11 men on the field if you didn't know.... So on 2nd and 10 when the Niner's switch to a 3 receiver set, they just leave the slot receiver and TE wide open and hope that they run the ball to Barlow? And you're talking to me about football basics? Please.

TheRawDAWG wrote:
Oh and what is this you say about the 49ers having to pass because they are down all the time? The D wont have to have 8 in the box because the 49ers will be forced to pass? If the 9ers are passing how does that help Barlow?


Let me make this easy for you. Which situation is it more likely that Barlow will get a 10 yard run...... 4 and inches or 2 and 15? Coverage does a lot in dictating how well a RB will produce. If you didn't already know, it is much tougher to run on 1st and 10, then it is on 2nd and 10, and especially 3rd and 10. Additionally, when you have a RB that can catch well out of the backfield, it forces the defense to use a linebacker in single coverage on the RB. That is how LT2 produced so well out of the backfield, no linebacker in the league can cover him 1 on 1. The same principle will help Barlow to have very good receiving numbers this year.


[/football 101]
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:01 pm

Kensat30 wrote:[football 101]

TheRawDAWG wrote:Wow what a waste of typing. LT2 is NOT an exception to the rule? Sorry dude you lost me there. LT2 is a BIG exception to the rule. Don't even try to compare him to Barlow. DON'T!!



You totally missed the point of my argument. I'm not comparing Barlow to LT2, I'm trying to debunk the 8-men in the box theory. You know how LT2 got so many receptions and why his yardage numbers were so extremely good on such a bad team? Of course he's an incredibly talented runner, but there actually is another reason for his success..... He saw A LOT of soft coverage simply because the Charger's were in 2nd and 3rd and long situations so often last season. It's very easy to complete a 4 yard pass to the RB when defenses are in a nickel defense if you didn't know this.....


TheRawDAWG wrote:As for having other weapons on your team not helping you....uh do you know football? If it doesn't matter than why is it one of the most talked about subjects? If TO and Garcia are there the D has to respect the pass. They can't have spies on the RB or have 8-9 in the box.Without a passing game they will be able to have 8-9 in the box. And with NO WR that has to be doub;le teamed it just makes sense that another defender will be closer to the line.



I'm sorry, but defenses do not gameplan their entire defense to stop a single WR, not even Randy Moss requires that much attention. A single WR may require a double team all game long, usually this means shifting a safety over to cover the deep third. So basically what you are trying to say, is that now that T.O. is gone, the other teams will magically blitz a safety on every play? Why not just put an extra lineback in the game and go with a 4/4 defense?

Not to mention you list a 9 man in the box? There's only 11 men on the field if you didn't know.... So on 2nd and 10 when the Niner's switch to a 3 receiver set, they just leave the slot receiver and TE wide open and hope that they run the ball to Barlow? And you're talking to me about football basics? Please.

TheRawDAWG wrote:
Oh and what is this you say about the 49ers having to pass because they are down all the time? The D wont have to have 8 in the box because the 49ers will be forced to pass? If the 9ers are passing how does that help Barlow?


Let me make this easy for you. Which situation is it more likely that Barlow will get a 10 yard run...... 4 and inches or 2 and 15? Coverage does a lot in dictating how well a RB will produce. If you didn't already know, it is much tougher to run on 1st and 10, then it is on 2nd and 10, and especially 3rd and 10. Additionally, when you have a RB that can catch well out of the backfield, it forces the defense to use a linebacker in single coverage on the RB. That is how LT2 produced so well out of the backfield, no linebacker in the league can cover him 1 on 1. The same principle will help Barlow to have very good receiving numbers this year.


[/football 101]


Ok just a couple things. First sorry about coming off a little cocky and arrogant. My bad. I was having a bad day.

With that out of the way, you do make very valid points. I agree that defences don't make ENTIRE game plans to stop 1 WR. But I don't think I ever said they did. What I said was, SF doesn't have any WRs that need to be double covered. Thus making a whole other defender available to watch the run. If 2 guys were on TO and only 1 needs to be on Lloyd that makes a big difference. Not to mention the fact Garcia could also run and was much more dangerous with his arm then Rattay is. Which teams had to respect. So like I said, no double team (extra defender to use) and no one needed to really make sure Rattay stays where he is. It's easily concievable to have 8 guys in the box to gaurd against the run. And about the 9 in the box, I know how many guys are on the football field. But, if the 9ers line up in a 2 TE formation or a 1 TE formation with 2 RBs. They would then only have 2 guys to cover outside. Which in turn would leave 9 guys there to cover the run. If it is a pass play then obviously there isn't going to be 9 guys at the line of scrimmage. Just 9 guys waiting for the run. If it doesn't happen they drop back in coverage. And I'm not saying a lot of defences will do this often. I'm just saying on some plays I'm sure they will try every now and then.

But again, I am not going to argue. That happens way too much and it NEVER goes anywhere. We'll just have to see at the end of the year.
So they weren't the best...and may have ended the worst. SO WHAT!
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Postby kevster1 » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:30 am

It seems that some people on this site do not have the greatest invention known to man, called the N.f.l. package. If you did you would see some of the game's in which Barlow when given half a step was on the way to the end zone Barlow is a very talented, and very fast R.b. that will make believers out of every one this year
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