King Colt wrote:Brady stepped into a much safer and simpler role with his team, which he executes well. Would Brady even be in this discussion if he had been drafted by, say the Bengals?
That's the situation Manning came into. The Colts were laughingstocks, just like the Bengals or Cardinals. The Patriots weren't even close to bottom of the barrel when Brady came in. Congrats to him on all his success, but he's just not in the same league as Manning.
Great points... Manning made the Colts what they are today... Brady inheritted a good team, and a great defense... It's a lot easier to win games when don't have to worry about your D giving up 30 points... Manning does not have that luxury... He has to show up big every single game because the Colts D is not going to get the job done if he doesn't...
The fact of the matter is if you were to send Manning to the Chargers right now they'd be in the playoffs guaranteed... I'm not so sure the same would be true if you sent Brady...
That last statement is RIDICULOUS! The system makes the player, not the other way around. The Chargers coaching staff is not very good, that's why they're not very good. And if you watch any of the Chargers games, their QB is not their problem.
But, if I had to pick a QB that would make the Chargers better(not a playoff team!!), I would choose Brady, b/c they don't need someone who can throw the ball 40 times a game, and throw for 350+ yards a game, they need someone who can spread the ball around and move the ball down the field, while keeping the other teams offense on the sidelines.
Yeah so if u say the system makes the player.....that means Brady is only good because of the system that he's in...You're right it's the system, stick fiedler on the pats, wow he woulda been a 2 time super bowl MVP!
Basically, it's mostly the player, but the system also needs to be one that works.
Brady's style fits that system perfect, and that's why he excels so well in it. Fielder doesn't fit that system at all. He doesn't react to pressure well, he's not that accurate within 15 yards, and he tends to turn the ball over, and not have the ability to make key plays when needed.
You could make an arguement that Manning could fit into any system, and thus, that makes him more valuable.
wow, I don't think you're taking my comment the right way. I guess I should have put big *Sarcasm* tags or something.
Anyways, what I was disputing was your comment of "the system making the QB".
I'd say its 60% system, 40% player. I know its a little off-topic, but look at Lawyer Milloy. Alot of people thought he was of the top safeties in the game, and when the Pats cut him, people(including myself) couldn't understand why. BUT, in the Buffalo defensive scheme, he's not the player he was in the Pat's scheme. I know thats alot different situation, but it is one example of the scheme making the player.
Manning does just as good a job of spreading the ball around. He usually completes multiple passes to 5, 6 or even 7 receivers during a game. I do see your point about Manning having better receivers, although he hasn't really leaned on Marvin for about 2 years (marvin's record breaking, jaw dropping season).
I agree that Marvin is the best (at least over the last 5 years), although Moss is showing signs of becoming more of a leader and less of a pain in the rear (really the only knock on him aside from the fact that he used to take plays off).
Manning deserves more credit for basically being the offensive coordinator on the team. No QB has done that since Jim Kelly. Could Brady be relied on to call an entire offensive game? Possibly, but he won't be given that responsibility.
I still rely on the argument - where would Brady be if he had been drafted by the Chargers, Cards, or Bengals? We wouldn't even be having this discussion in that case, IMO.
34=Sweetness wrote:Since a QBs greatness is measured in super bowl wins, then the following QBs suck.
Manning McNair Fouts Marino McNabb Culpepper Tarkenton Jim Kelly
should i go on? The following QBs, apparently are gods. Jim Plunkett Tom Brady Trent Dilfer Doug Williams Brad Johnson Kurt Warner (ok for one season he was) Jim McMahon
Would you seriously say the bottom list is better then the top list?
You've used some extremes here Sweetness. I would take 3 from the bottom list over any of the top list. Numbers mean nothing to me when considering who I would want as the QB for my team. I don't care if you throw 40 regular season touchdowns. I don't care if your passer rating is 100. It just doesn't matter as much as winning when it counts.
You can lose during the regular season, several times. In the playoffs you can't. As the playoffs progress it gets more important to win with all the added pressure of winning as well. 2 games all year mean the most (usually, you can make the argument for the game that you must win to get into the playoffs) and if you don't win them, you aren't the best. That was the original argument... who is the best. Tarkenton 0-3, Kelly 0-4, McNair 0-1, Marino 0-1 in the Super... Culp, Manning, Fouts, McNabb...never even been. McNabb 0-3 trying to get there. All these guys had good enough teams to win 10,11,12,13 regular season games... why not when it mattered? Is it the D that people are using as the reason why Manning isn't a champ? D was good enough to win 13 games... just not the big one.
I also realize and agree with the comment that one man does not win or lose (again, usually) the Superbowl. And if you want to call Manning, McNabb, McNair great QB's... fine... subjective. IF you want to single out someone as the best... it ain't a guy that loses when it matters. BTW... Brady's stats in the Super... 500+ yds, 4 td's, 1 pick. Hey Bill... you want to trade Brady for Culpepper straight up... in a heartbeat.
Also, the comment about Brady being handed a team. The Pats were 9-7 in 1998, 8-8 in 1999 and 5-11 in 2000 and 0-1 in 2001 before Brady took over. Since then 42-13 with 2 championships. I would take him as my starting QB over anyone in the NFL right now.
Finally, the statement about Manning being the best after his week 3 performance. Please... Yes the guy can throw a great ball. No argument here. He also threw the 5 td's against GB's #3 and #5 DB's. Not exactly stellar D.